Traditional Media vs Indie Podcasting, with Sam Baker - DW’s Audio Team Lead 🇪🇺
Eurowaves #41 Interview
Sam Baker has worked as an investigative tech reporter for Point + Engadget, an arts & culture senior contributor for Forbes, and as an audio producer for DW, the BBC and other podcasts. Sam hosted DW’s Living Planet during her first four years at DW, then went on to co-create and launch the DW podcast Don’t Drink the Milk – The curious history of things, and she is now Audio Team Lead for DW’s Format Development team.
You can connect with Sam on LinkedIn here.
What’s your podcast origin story?
My podcast story started as all good podcast stories should - as an avid listener. Not terribly original, but one day at the gym I listened to an episode of Serial that my friend had showed me how to download. My world was changed, my ears were opened. After this, podcasts began to fill every moment of the day I had to myself - Death, Sex & Money while making dinner, Freakonomics on my drive to work, Missing Richard Simmons while cleaning the house, Another Round while walking the dog. I’d always known I wanted to be a journalist, and while college led me down a different path and I took a little adventure detour for Alaska after graduating, my decision to go back to school to get a journalism collided with this podcast boom in a beautiful way, showing me where exactly I wanted to be.
I found my way to City, University of London, studying broadcast journalism and devouring radio classes. While there, I lucked my way into a gig editing episodes of The Gender Knot podcast - a scrappy independent show hosted by Nastaran Tavakoli-Far (she tells me I got the gig because I wasn’t afraid to share my honest feedback about it). This is where I learned how to cut tape, how to structure an interview, how to put on a live show, how to set up a promo swap, and so much more. In my experience, these sorts of jobs, simple and alongside your studies, can often be the biggest door openers, as it was in this case.
How have your moves from the US to the UK to Germany shaped your perspective of European podcasting and its potential?
When I left the US, podcasting was getting pretty well established. But arriving in the UK in 2017, people were still very much figuring things out, experimenting, and some of that crazy podcast money was starting to flow over from the boom going on in the US. My Dad Wrote a Porno was the biggest podcast in the UK at the time, which pointed to the more comedic direction that country’s podcast industry was headed (as opposed to Americans’ love of true crime). What was also happening in London at the time was a bubbling up of a genuine podcast community.
UKAN had just started and people were helping each other with advice and standing up for each other when someone posted a job with a stupidly low salary, AND we were meeting in person! Many of us seemed to be craving this connection and I think it really helped independent podcasts to grow. This is what I love about podcast people - this community is so friendly and happy to lift one another up, because we know that podcast listening is not a zero-sum game.
Podcasting in Europe today has some of that early energy I saw in London, which is exciting, though the industry has changed - the crazy big podcast deals are gone, for one. But what feels similar in Europe is that craving for community - to learn from one another, and to making ‘podcast friends’ as the wonderful ladies at Tink would say. I think Europe has the potential to build this community transcontinentally online, and also locally, with the podcasters in our cities and regions.
When we work in such a solo (or maybe duo) way, as a lot of podcasters do, it’s nice to come out of our little editing holes and realize we’re not alone in these endeavors. This is why I was so excited to see Eurowaves when it began, I was jazzed to join the Eurosounds Google Group (listservs are where it’s at, y’all), and I love love loved being able to meet fellow European podcasters in London last month at the Podcast Show. I think we make each other better, more creative, and honestly, just happier by feeling we’re part of a community or movement to bring podcasts to the people.
Having reporting experience both as a freelancer and under organizations like DW, the BBC and Forbes, what’s one advantage and one challenge you discovered when working with organizations that have a traditional media background?
When it comes to podcasts, I would say a big advantage of working for traditional media outlets is the infrastructure to realize more ambitious projects. Whether that’s better budgets, colleagues with experience in video or just an international network of correspondents that you can tap into, I’ve been able to do things at traditional broadcasters that I could never do on my own at an indie podcast.
I would say one challenge - or perhaps an advantage for indie podcasts - is that you don’t really own your work. I think the podcasts that really last have heart and soul behind them (maybe some sweat and tears too). When you’re an independent podcast and you really believe in what you’re doing and you have that drive, the heart and soul part is easy. And to be fair, I’ve had the good fortune to work with teams at traditional broadcasters who have found that magic too. But sometimes when you’re working on a project that you weren’t able to fully shape or you know you ultimately don’t own the rights to, sometimes that passion can be harder to muster. I think that’s healthy - you don’t want to invest everything into IP that you don’t ultimately own. In these situations I find that it’s easier to ‘own’ an episode or a limited series that you really put a lot of energy into and be proud of. This is also why I think indie podcasts will never go away and still sometimes surprise us by doing better than traditional media - because they’re the underdog and to make a successful podcast, it really requires that fire in the belly.
From a producer’s perspective with international experience, how do you think the scrappy, supportive nature of podcasting can be kept alive today?
So we often hear about this ‘discoverability’ problem in podcasting. Most podcasts platforms are not easily searchable. YouTube is changing this and that’s a big reason for shows to invest some energy in YouTube. But I think podcasting’s ‘discoverability’ problem is actually an opportunity for podcasters to support one another, because we have to in order to find new listeners.
Whether that’s swapping promos or trailers, having another show’s host on your show, or just giving each other a shout out, we know that these measures work for finding new podcast listeners, still! And bonus, they’re a great way to make new podcast friends and connections. These sorts of cross-promotional measures have led me to trade notes about hosting tools with other organizations, find new shows I love, and even collaborate on making episodes together.
Based on your cross-border work, what do you predict the future of European podcasting will look like?
Hah! I feel like predictions are a good way to be wrong, so don’t hold me to this, but I think Europe has the opportunity to do some really cool multilingual shows. This has already happened in a few cases (that have been featured in this newsletter) and we’ve seen some excellent examples in the US as well, like one of my favorite shows Anything for Selena from Futuro Media.
Often I hear that Europe’s many languages make it difficult to create a real shared identity or in this case, a true podcast community. But I think this challenge is a great opportunity for the continent - to do cross border work, to produce and adapt podcasts into multiple languages tailored to local audiences (thus reaching more people!), to think big, and to do ambitious projects. So I think we’ll see more and more of those if we’re able to break out of our bubbles and meet one another.
Share 2-3 recommendations of your favorite podcasts that deserve more love.
Kerning Cultures - I really miss this show. They brought us beautiful stories from “Stories from the Middle East and North Africa, and the spaces in between.” I think the shows about ‘the spaces in between’ and diaspora were often especially inspiring to those of us who work and live in places we aren’t from.
Past Present Future - This podcast feels like the best parts of your favorite university class - that deep thoughtful conversation that leaves you feeling more full of thought and with a new perspective when you leave. I also personally love Cambridge professor David Runciman’s abundant use of Hamilton references whenever he talks about US politics.
Personal Best - If you’re stuck in a rut with your podcast creativity, listen to this show from the CBC! It’s funny and quirky and takes extremely unconventional approaches to help people with their personal issues. I also love that they took a 5 year break from the show and then decided to come back for a season. (Something we’ve seen with other shows like The Longest Shortest Time)
*Honorable mention: Rough Translation - just a beautiful show for all of us who love learning about the world, and ourselves.
Thank you, Sam!